As so often happens, once I start thinking*, I head towards discussing feminism, and the downsides of conservative evangelicalism in restricting my thinking about this. And Merlin says "Ah, you see, my belief tells me that women can do just as much as men. And my god agrees."
I think, I'm not sure I'd want to have my god agreeing with me. But here's my new question - what's the point of god? I appreciate that it's possible for things to exist without a purpose - and if god exists, god exists without needing to have a purpose for me**. But...
1. If God isn't bigger than me, and doesn't know more than me, what is the point in relating to him/her/it?
2. If God is bigger than me and does know more than me, doesn't that mean I just have to do what they advise? I'm really not interested in just doing what I'm told - it doesn't sound much fun.
I was trying to work this out by discussing it with a friend. I miss God loving me and having a good plan which I'm part of - a sense of purpose. But I don't want to lose my freedom and independence and go back to living within narrow rules.
She asks, what if God doesn't have a plan? I say I can't imagine God not having a plan - that's too much part of what God is for me to comprehend God being God without it.
Ok. She asks, if God had a plan, but was a tyrant, a complete dictator who just wanted veryone to do what they were told, what then? Well, I wouldn't be interested. Turns out goodness is more important that the plan.
What it comes down to is, if God doesn't know everything, how can I trust God? She asks "do you trust me?". I see what she means. I trust her, within her limitations of knowledge and understanding. Can I trust a limited God?
*It's true, I do think, they took some pictures of my brain this week and there really is one there. And it has brainwaves coming out of it and everything.
**my theology takes a while to make much sense.
9 comments:
Hmm... this is a tricky one. I also don't like the idea of anyone telling me what to do, even God...
The way I try to make sense of it is that God knows me so well he knows what I'm going to do etc, even before I do it. From initiating arguments over children's TV programmes to falling down a sandbank on the beach (wish he'd warned me about that one...) That way I feel I still have the ability to think or do what I want, but with the feeling that someone's walking alongside me - even if he's shaking his rolling his eyes at me sometimes.
I'll get back to you on the purpose bit.
ps. nice dessert by the way
shaking his head, that is. Not his eyes. That would be weird.
Your grandmother probably knows more than you, but wouldn't think to tell you what to do. The two don't necessary go hand in hand - God is not a dictator he's a kind of perfect parent.. letting us make us own mistakes and also letting us enjoy our successes and learn from both. He's also there to comfort us when our mistakes let us fall flat on our face.
He's also big enough to take it when we feel like calling him a complete bastard sometimes. An important part of prayer, I think :p
I remember you asking the question what the point of God was at the weekend away, and it had me pondering for days.. it's an interesting question. I'm not sure I have an answer that works for everyone but here's what works for me.
Take a look at Sanctus. You see a group of people with different backgrounds.. some of whom have had horrible experiences, some who've got off comparitively lightly in life. Yet there's a bond that holds us together. There's a real bond of love between everyone.. quite tangible sometimes. Is it merely theology? I can't accept that - as a group I doubt any two of us can agree on it. It's something else.
Now bear with me on this. I've actually read a bit of the Bible (!) and it says that God is Love. For me.. when I see the love in Sanctus, or at Greenbelt, or I'm walking down the street and see little glimpses of it, I'm looking at little glimpses of God - and those little glimpses can turn my day from a crappy one to a great one, because I know he's around.. encouraging, comforting and bringing people together, 24/7, 365 days a year (except Christmas).
Without him the world would be a much colder place, I think.
..and I just realise I just wrote about half of what I was going to write on my own blog but couldn't find the words.
Drat and Balderdash.
My mum used this argument about god knowing what I'm going to do before I do it, but in the context of predestination and free will. She says that if two cakes are on offer, she's not making me take the chocolate one, but she knows I will. Damn, she's right, she does know me...
I suppose part of my problem is that, if God actually does know that much more than me, even if not to the point of knowing the future, even if he doesn't actually tell me what to do, I'd be so stupid not to take his advice that it almost becomes an instruction.
Say I'm playing chess and I've got Gary Kasparov or someone advising me. I could just do what I felt like doing, but I'd probably lose because the only people I'm better at chess than are people who don't know the rules or actually like losing. The difference between me choosing to take Gary's advice and Gary telling me what to do is fairly minimal.
And who chooses to make mistakes? They're good for development but usually quite painful...
I do see your problem with a god that isn't all-powerful, though the moral dilemma of an all-powerful God who allows so much suffering in the world seems to me to be a far greater problem...
However, in response to number 1. "If God isn't bigger than me, and doesn't know more than me, what is the point in relating to him/her/it?" : I bet there are people in your life who aren't bigger than you or know more than you that you totally see the point in relating to...? because you love them and they're precious to you.. I really like what Tony says about the bond of love that joins people to one another and to God.
I really like what Rach and Tony say about number 2 - and what you say yourself. If a being called "God" really exists and knows you and is wiser than you and gives you advice, you can still choose whether or not to follow the advice but if you have any sense you probably will do. There's a distinction between being forced to do what you're told and choosing to follow some good advice.
Maybe if this loving God exists, the bits in the Bible or in Christians' beliefs and attitudes that don't seem terribly loving have nothing to do with this God anyway...
I think what I'm trying to say is that when you're dealing with the sort of God I've been brought up with, that distinction between following advice and doing what you are told becomes essentially meaningless, due to the quality of the advice.
I can't really explain it any better than that. Guess I'm just going to have to work on it...
Um, I suppose it depends (I've done some very quick thinking... On what sort of advice you're expecting. If you expect God to advise on things like jobs, relationships and items of clothing to put on in the morning, that's one thing. If you're more expecting general advice about beingnice to people and not stealing or coveting wives, it's much easier to take theadvice and make your own decisions.
This may need to move into another post at some point...
I suspect the issue is "the sort of God I've been brought up with" rather than God himself. Not sure what the answer to is there... Hope it doesn't sound too trite but maybe let him be himself and you be yourself and somewhere it'll all work out.
No matter what the advice we still have freedom - in life there often isn't a right or wrong choice... it's not all black and white. You have the freedom to take your own path - there are few absolutely wrong decisions (and equally few absolutely right ones IMO), just different ones.
As far as choosing to make mistakes.. we don't intend to, but we do. If we didn't we couldn't learn, and be there for people when they make the same mistakes.
A parent who never let their child do *anything* wrong wouldn't be raising a well rounded child.. more a kind of robot that follows rules.
He doesn't give us the right to just sit around and let him make all the decisions. I know some seem to act that way and even seem t want it... but to be fully human we must be free and independent. Being led around like a puppet, asking what to eat for breakfast, what to wear, who to go out with, even for answers to threads like this... not healthy, and I don't believe God would want it that way.
I'm sure he's ecstatic that you're thinking about this stuff rather than taking it all at face value.
.. and I'm coming dangerously close to preaching. That's not like me at all. Need to go and have a lie down...
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